tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post7353592215495598631..comments2023-08-08T00:37:45.098-07:00Comments on A Philosophy Job Market Blog: Said I've Been Crying, My Tears They Fell Like RainPseudonymous Grad Studenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00627480292942427387noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-16003255177836830072008-08-20T06:19:00.000-07:002008-08-20T06:19:00.000-07:00Experience has convinced me of what none of you co...Experience has convinced me of what none of you could.<BR/><BR/>Despite your collective advice that sleeping with one's advisor is a bad idea, I retained the desire to do so - right up until three days ago, when one of my undergraduate students hit on me. I rejected him. Not because I think he's unattractive, but because I realized that 1) it's totally unethical for me to fuck him 2) it could get messy and 3) he is too young to be much good at it. <BR/><BR/>This made me realize that my advisor quite possibly thinks of me in the same way as I think of the undergraduate. (Wrongly, I might add, since I am rather good in bed). *Voila* Desire gone!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-53071037993789059932008-07-01T02:20:00.000-07:002008-07-01T02:20:00.000-07:00way earlier on this thread, a few ppl asked about ...way earlier on this thread, a few ppl asked about same-sex inappropriate behavior. ask and ye shall receive....<BR/><BR/>so i'm a poof, and i've had some experience with this. of course, there are like, what, eight senior gay philosophers in the English speaking world? So it doesn't come up very often. (There may be slightly more lesbian philosophers, but I can only speculate.) There are of course more and more gay grad students and Asst Profs, but this is pretty recent.<BR/><BR/>As it happens, I had two encounters with gay professors. both turned out horribly. in the first instance, i fucked a senior professor at a conference very early on in my career. i'm sure i had mixed motives, as he was more than twice my age. still, fame and intellect are very sexy. we were together for the whole conference, and then he wanted to keep in touch. he offered to read some of my manuscripts, etc etc. but once i made it clear that i didnt want to continue a romantic relationship with him--all i wanted was that conference experience--he stopped giving me professional advice and encouragement. so i basically lost a mentor in the profession bc of a three-day fuck. or maybe he was never interested in my work in the first place. of course, i'll never know. thankfully, he retired soon after, so i dont have to confront this again.<BR/><BR/>having learned my lesson, i resolved to keep my zipper up in professional settings. a few years later, a member of my committee outright propositioned me. i politely declined, even though i was attracted to him. but he must have taken the rejection badly or something, and he turned on me. i eventually had to alter the dissertation so that i could plausibly request to replace him on the committee. it was extremely awkward and unpleasant.<BR/><BR/>in the end, it's like you get screwed either way.... and at least in my case, the student is at a distinct power disadvantage. ppl who said that professors get in trouble for this sort of thing don't know what they are talking about. the university / department / the powers that be will almost always side with the prof, unless there is clear, demonstrable abuse of power.<BR/><BR/>in the end, i dont think that same-sex inappropriate relationships are any different, beyond being rarer. student-teacher relationships are a bad, bad idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-7301419367155641182008-06-22T16:27:00.000-07:002008-06-22T16:27:00.000-07:00"[L]et me start off by asking whether anyone think..."[L]et me start off by asking whether anyone thinks male students in philosophy are advantaged in any way. (Gasp!)"<BR/><BR/>This strikes me as rather poor argument that it's morally permissible for a woman (or anyone else) to further their careers in this way. Even if it were true that male students are advantaged in philosophy, that seems to be totally independent of this question.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately it's all too easy to acquire a victim complex. I see this kind of reasoning used all the time to justify unacceptable behaviour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-55746922964763826292008-06-21T23:53:00.000-07:002008-06-21T23:53:00.000-07:00OMG, Anon 3:33. Spitefuck me too. I'm a good phi...OMG, Anon 3:33. Spitefuck me too. I'm a good philosophygirl. But spitefuck me anyway. That's so hot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-45838817715706012462008-06-21T15:33:00.000-07:002008-06-21T15:33:00.000-07:00You know, it sounds as if most you simply need to ...You know, it sounds as if most you simply need to be on the receiving end of a solid fucking. Chill the fuck out, peeps. Let the maestro fiddle with your diddle parts so you can purge yourself of all these pent up frustrations and juices. I promise to write you a stellar rec letter (except for Anon 2:37, you just get a hardcore spite fucking).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-74185151273665900812008-06-21T14:37:00.000-07:002008-06-21T14:37:00.000-07:00Anon 11:34Of course, if you had read the ACTUAL qu...Anon 11:34<BR/><BR/>Of course, if you had read the ACTUAL question and the conversation that followed, you could've saved yourself an embolism. It was noted earlier on that there may very well be more disadvantages to being a woman than could ever be made up for by this particular way of carrying oneself. And nobody ever suggested that it's super common, or that because it's possible to do this, you're better off as a woman in the profession. Can you, you know, respond to the actual statements that have been made as opposed to reflexively getting offended? I was just asking for perspectives on how common of a phenomenon this is. <BR/><BR/>Let's take a look at the argument we can distill from YOUR comments: <BR/>P1: White dudes have advantages (presumably over non-white dudes).<BR/>Therefore: Even though being a white dude is genetically-determined and not a choice, it's a matter of indifference if everyone who isn't a white dude does (almost?) whatever they can to advance their careers.<BR/><BR/>Is that about right? Hmm... compelling! And I say that as a "non-white dude," so I don't get to take full advantage of the "zillions of perks" you so vaguely refer to.<BR/><BR/>As for Anon 10:44, that's ALSO a bad argument. First of all, saying that most rec letters are inflated is questionable on its face. Second, even if it were true, that doesn't meant that having sex with someone couldn't ALSO cause inflated rec letters. Third, and related to number two, if almost all rec letters are "inflated" and that's part of the convention, as long as the inflation tracks academic performance, then it really doesn't advantage anybody illicitly (since almost everyone benefits from it) -- as opposed to, say, having sex with the recommender (or anything else, for that matter, like bribery). Finally, even if none of those problems were present, the conclusion of your argument is pretty much as noteworthy as the conclusion of mine, so I don't see why that should prevent one from asking about it. <BR/><BR/>Apparently this subject is too sensitive for a rational discussion, even among anonymous participants. As such, I withdraw it until everyone can grow up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-88341762880550493512008-06-21T11:34:00.000-07:002008-06-21T11:34:00.000-07:00You people are creeps. You're way too outraged an...You people are creeps. You're way too outraged and aggressive at the prospect of someone using Teh Sex to get their non-white-dude leg up in the field. What's conspicuously absent is your outrage over the zillions of perks guys get in this discipline. Heaven fucking forbid someone other than you should dare capitalize on an unfair advantage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-36101868236747784442008-06-21T10:44:00.000-07:002008-06-21T10:44:00.000-07:00Here is an argument for you:Since most rec letters...Here is an argument for you:<BR/><BR/>Since most rec letters are inflated already, the problem isn't fucking to get an inflated rec letter. Why? Cuz if you get a rec letter simpliciter, chances are that shit will be inflated. So fucking doesn't cause inflated rec letters, rec letter writing causes inflated rec letters. Fucking, however, could get someone to write you a rec letter that otherwise wouldn't, and that would be the problem--rather than having a letter include praise you don't deserve, the problem is having a letter you don't deserve including praise you don't deserve. <BR/><BR/>You like that, Anon 9:34? That make you all tingle-licious?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-9684076133096588342008-06-21T09:34:00.000-07:002008-06-21T09:34:00.000-07:00...right. Who cares if people get inflated recomme......right. Who cares if people get inflated recommendations purely on the basis of sexual relationships with professors.... Are you people serious? How is that in itself a matter of indifference? That's such an obviously untenable position. For a graduate philosophy blog, this comment strand has featured the most absurd (non)argumentation I've ever seen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-80173204927335916062008-06-21T08:45:00.000-07:002008-06-21T08:45:00.000-07:00Ack! Inflated recommendations? In philosophy? Heav...Ack! Inflated recommendations? In philosophy? Heaven forbid!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-27722845232656776362008-06-21T00:41:00.000-07:002008-06-21T00:41:00.000-07:00Anon 12:00:Really? I hope you're joking. It's one ...Anon 12:00:<BR/><BR/>Really? I hope you're joking. It's one thing to say that the type of case in question is rare. That's plausible enough, albeit hard to verify. But it's something completely different to say what you're saying -- namely, that you can't see how such cases would confer an advantage on the student involved. Your example is of sleeping with someone on the search committee at a particular program where you're trying to get hired. That's really not the most likely scenario, is it? Try this: Sleeping with a prof in your OWN department, and thereby getting inflated recommendations -- whether for graduate school applications or for the job market. That's how the advantage is "cashed out." And we need not "assume" anything at all, since it does happen, at least sometimes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-61993422635163119142008-06-19T12:00:00.000-07:002008-06-19T12:00:00.000-07:00I would really like to hear how sleeping your way ...I would really like to hear how sleeping your way anywhere is supposed to work. Seriously: those who claim that there are any advantages attained by women philosophers by sleeping with their advisors or with anyone in the profession, I truly want to hear how one assumes these advantages are cashed out. <BR/>(Faculty meeting: <BR/>I think we should hire Ms X., I fucked her last year, and she gives awesome head?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-47359147477559811752008-06-18T19:21:00.000-07:002008-06-18T19:21:00.000-07:00Well, I've changed my mind and my having changed m...Well, I've changed my mind and my having changed my mind should absolutely change the mind of our anonymous philosopher.<BR/><BR/>Assuming that the adviser doesn't have a significant other of any sort and this isn't some attempt to screw someone over/screw your way to the top, our adviser is healthy, and the adviser/advisee relationship has not undermined your autonomy you should finish the dissertation and make a night of it. Just do it in that order.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the desire to sleep with a philosopher is abnormal. However, the abnormality of that desire does not make the acting on it wrong. I hope not. Every woman I've slept with has wanted to sleep with me precisely because I'm a philosopher with philosopher's traits (i.e., I dress in black, I don't eat much meat, I can't give two shits about football, I'm starved for attention from women and the desperation is adorable, I listen to Yo La Tango etc...). <BR/><BR/>Good luck, have fun, and don't forget to write after it happens.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-72556345774947999392008-06-18T15:42:00.000-07:002008-06-18T15:42:00.000-07:00I just want to point out that I'm not interested i...I just want to point out that I'm not interested in my committee member for the sake of marks. I'm doing extremely well on my own, thanks. <BR/><BR/>After all this very sensible advice, I think I should just get to know anon 8:17 a little better...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-21309878539285327372008-06-18T14:15:00.000-07:002008-06-18T14:15:00.000-07:00Wait, which Plato dialogue covers sleeping with yo...Wait, which Plato dialogue covers sleeping with your professor? Phaedrus?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-22173678346102474512008-06-18T14:01:00.000-07:002008-06-18T14:01:00.000-07:00I think most of you are reading too much into this...I think most of you are reading too much into this. The original poster just wants to sleep with her advisor. This doesn't imply that she wants to _get ahead_ by sleeping with her advisor. In fact, it may very well be the threat of in-class tittering and accusatory finger-pointing that has her hot to trot. I mean, why the fuck not risk everything on a one-nighter with one of very few men who could possibly lord his power over her for the remainder of her career? Alternatively, she too could come out on top: able to lord this fling over _him_ at every APA from now until the end of _his_ career; sweet justice for the years of anguish that he put her through as she wrote her dissertation.<BR/><BR/>No doubt about it, gambling with such power scenarios parallels the sexual fantasies of many.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-3551266430159181442008-06-17T23:21:00.000-07:002008-06-17T23:21:00.000-07:00I am a male graduate student and I am struggling i...I am a male graduate student and I am struggling in my program to get good marks. I read this blog every day and I would like to try to sleep in a bed and have intercourse with the female faculty for strategic reasons and romantic reasons also. I have sent out a few electronic mails already to "test the waters" as my American friends say. So far no one has marked the "intercourse now" box that I put on the webmessage. Several of my romantic prospects wrote words back in their electronic mails that surprised me, such as "restraining" and "order" and "fuck off" and other exciting but mysterious phrases. Is this a way of politely declining my offer or are they flirting? Some of these phrases, I have learned, refer to romantic anatomy and actions. I am shy by nature and worry that I have made a mistake but my american friends tell me that I shouldn't worry. they didn't say this exactly but they laugh at me in an encouraging way that makes me send more and more emails! I don't like these unusual mating rituals but I do like my happy americans friends. <BR/>I hope this helps with the original question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-36679841395909095122008-06-17T20:17:00.000-07:002008-06-17T20:17:00.000-07:00If it helps at all, folks, I am super randy and wa...If it helps at all, folks, I am super randy and want to fuck everyone, both male and female. In fact, I probably have or will have fucked most people rockin' this Squaresville blog. Your failures are your failures alone; your successes, however, belong to my wang.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-7491205229032748792008-06-17T19:30:00.000-07:002008-06-17T19:30:00.000-07:00I personally know female grad students who HAVE ca...<I>I personally know female grad students who HAVE capitalized on illicit relations with male profs, and who have advanced their careers as a result.</I><BR/><BR/>I know more female students who have been harassed or assaulted by faculty than I have those who have slept around to get ahead. Easy to do, since the latter is zero.<BR/><BR/>What's that show? Not a whole lot, really. Anecdotes don't show much.<BR/><BR/>My sense is that the worry in the undercurrent here, of women sleeping around to get ahead and providing yet another reason why The Job Market, She is So Cruel, is mostly unfounded. <BR/><BR/>To the Questioner, while many people meet and partner up with other academics, it's never a good idea when it's an advisor-advisee relationship. Even if it's not against university policy, the best case here is that you end up being someone's anecdote about how someone they knew screwed their advisor to get ahead. Who needs that for a one-night stand?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-30970168272739876942008-06-17T19:23:00.000-07:002008-06-17T19:23:00.000-07:00I'll address this to the original anon in case (s)...I'll address this to the original anon in case (s)he's still reading. <BR/><BR/>Judging by your second comment, it sounds like you're afraid that having a crush on your advisor makes you bad or freakish. I want to reassure you that you're normal and OK: the fact that this person is your advisor makes them appear smart and powerful (it's a sort of perspective trick), and brains and power are inherently sexy. Hell, I had huge crushes on some of my professors when I was an undergrad. I've grown out of that phase, but I am very happy that I did not sleep with any professors while I was undergoing it. You may find yourself less interested in sleeping with your advisor when you've been around longer, gained more confidence in your own abilities, and gotten more used to the dynamics of the sexy perspective trick. It definitely worked that way for me.<BR/><BR/>Just to be totally clear, I think actually sleeping with your advisor is a terrible idea. But you're not a bad person for wanting to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-10467087203712632902008-06-17T18:07:00.000-07:002008-06-17T18:07:00.000-07:00Just keep in mind, those of you worried about illi...Just keep in mind, those of you worried about illicit advantages, that for every one woman grad student who "gets ahead" by sleeping with her male advisor, there are another two or three or four who have been hit on by old lecherous bearded jerks who either gave up, felt they should change advisors, or lost all confidence in their own abilities because whenever they talked to a professor or fellow grad student they feared the person was only interested in fucking them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-85608079388587061882008-06-17T17:14:00.000-07:002008-06-17T17:14:00.000-07:00"so I am eager to hear that people (female people)..."so I am eager to hear that people (female people) unequivocally benefit from not doing it. "<BR/><BR/>what are you asking for, 9:08?<BR/><BR/>you have already heard that vice is often punished; now you want us to tell you that virtue is rewarded, too?<BR/><BR/>"reader, i didn't fuck him. and i got the plum job, because everyone thought i was so awesomely ethical!"<BR/><BR/>ain't going to happen. and you probably wouldn't want it to.<BR/><BR/>philosophers have enough difficulty already policing the bad actors. and, yes, there is some policing of bad actors, despite the fact that we can all list lots of older-generation types who slept with their grad students.<BR/><BR/>but generally the sanctions are directed at the supervisor, not the student. if girl-student sleeps with boy-advisor, boy-advisor may find his career slows down for unknown reasons. he's considered 'uncollegial', 'unreliable with students', 'not a trustworthy advisor', etc.<BR/><BR/>isn't that enough?<BR/><BR/>trust me: you really don't want a bunch of philosophers trying to reward virtue.<BR/><BR/>anyhow, virtue is only triumphant in theatrical performances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-37078210182353334462008-06-17T17:05:00.000-07:002008-06-17T17:05:00.000-07:00PGOAT can glibly write off the original question b...PGOAT can glibly write off the original question by mis-characterizing it as a charge of a "Chick Conspiracy," but the ACTUAL question remains legitimate. I personally know female grad students who HAVE capitalized on illicit relations with male profs, and who have advanced their careers as a result. Meanwhile, while I know many more male grad students overall, I know none who've done the same thing. And so far, nobody else seems to either. <BR/><BR/>It may well be that the disadvantages of being a woman in this profession outweigh any potential benefits (such as they are) that could be gained (cynically or otherwise) by pursuing a relationship with an adviser. Even if that's true, though, it certainly doesn't justify the (perhaps rare) behavior of some female grad students that is the subject of this discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-84597338946195371252008-06-17T14:29:00.000-07:002008-06-17T14:29:00.000-07:00claiming that you "only want to sleep with him onc...claiming that you "only want to sleep with him once" (5:03) suggests to me in a BIG way that this is more about a power-admiration-intellectualinsecurity dynamic than anything else. if one had the simple, straightforward hots for someone, surely one would want to do it at least, say, ten times. a day. whereas if one's subconscious was just trying to make a point ("this person is not, contrary to belief, completely out of your league"), once would be enough.<BR/><BR/>i speak from (non)experience. i've wanted to sleep with a philosophy professor in my dept for years, badly, but in my imagination it only ever happens once, and that's all i want.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-84955961832396297242008-06-17T13:08:00.000-07:002008-06-17T13:08:00.000-07:00Anon 11:12, anon 9:47 here. i think in part where ...Anon 11:12, anon 9:47 here. <BR/><BR/>i think in part where it's most obvious that the junior female is harmed is in the kind of talk that popped up above, and which katenorlock so eloquently reacted to: the suspicion routinely sticks to women that they only got there (wherever 'there' may be) because they slept with somebody. <BR/>(and how is that supposed to work exactly? i was never clear on the mechanism by which this could be achieved). <BR/><BR/>another aspect is usually attested to anecdotally, indeed: i know of female grad students dropping out because the situation has become unpleasant; i even know someone who went on to marry the prof she was involved with, but still dropped out, because it was too weird around the department (not for him... he stayed on). and i also know a female professor who married her advisor (or was he just a senior professor where she did her phd, i can't recall), and now, many years later, is still somehow seen as only having made it because of him (although she definitely has made a name for herself). <BR/><BR/>then there is of course the more immediate dissertation damage: once there is any kind of sexual tension, or if a prof is sexually interested in an advisee (even without any sexual harassment inclinations on his part)it is not her work that's being assessed, nor does she get the advising she needs. <BR/><BR/>i assume the very last point holds for men with female advisors as well, but the former points do not, for all the usual reasons. now, what happens when such 'inappropriate interactions' occur between advisor and advisee of the same sex, i have no clue!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com