tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post8942646997359071940..comments2023-08-08T00:37:45.098-07:00Comments on A Philosophy Job Market Blog: Happy 4th of July!Pseudonymous Grad Studenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00627480292942427387noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-77144750114639738272008-07-16T21:03:00.000-07:002008-07-16T21:03:00.000-07:00u r old + out of touchur pal, keatskeatskeats"beca...u r old + out of touch<BR/><BR/>ur pal, <BR/><BR/>keatskeatskeats<BR/><BR/>"because it sounds like skeet skeet skeet"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-16858317492174444892008-07-16T05:03:00.000-07:002008-07-16T05:03:00.000-07:00Re the post's disparaging reference to "olds":As s...Re the post's disparaging reference to "olds":<BR/>As someone born in 1957, i venture to suggest that while i may be older than you, i am not "old".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-80872134906733112142008-07-14T12:26:00.000-07:002008-07-14T12:26:00.000-07:00I was talking about Herbert Einstein, Big Al's sem...I was talking about <I>Herbert Einstein</I>, Big Al's semi-autistic philosopher nephew who currently lives in Duluth and has three nipples. Duh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-30578753756762385492008-07-14T10:52:00.000-07:002008-07-14T10:52:00.000-07:00Also, Einstein didn't stay independent.Also, Einstein didn't <I>stay</I> independent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-17171055384354390992008-07-14T09:51:00.000-07:002008-07-14T09:51:00.000-07:00Einstein? He was an independent scholar a hundred ...Einstein? He was an independent scholar a hundred years ago! Hardly a relevant case now...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-42582186366194337922008-07-13T19:05:00.000-07:002008-07-13T19:05:00.000-07:00Ask the average college graduate whether they've h...Ask the average college graduate whether they've heard of Ayn Rand vs., say, John Rawls. I'll bet you any amount of money that more have heard of Ayn Rand. Now, that's not the litmus test for success as an independent scholar (I personally don't consider her as a 'philosopher'), but it does say something about success you might find independently, even if not academic respect.<BR/><BR/>Also, as pointed out ealrier, Einstein, et al. were indy scholars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-20019185573791205332008-07-11T18:20:00.000-07:002008-07-11T18:20:00.000-07:00I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by Leiter's...I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by Leiter's abstruse talk about the market. <BR/><BR/>Who are the girls? How do I invite them to smile? Do I coo in the cover letter, or do I let my adviser do it for me?<BR/><BR/><I>Yet today in the market<BR/>Among the vegetables<BR/>Two beautiful little girls<BR/>The first in a shopping basket<BR/>Whom I invite to smile<BR/>Who almost does<BR/>A second tiny in a carrier<BR/>Pressed close to her mother<BR/>Who worries over to tell me<BR/>That she's shy<BR/>I beg to differ<BR/>Cooing at them both</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-60129475522533896502008-07-11T07:14:00.000-07:002008-07-11T07:14:00.000-07:00I wonder whether Leiter's job market prognosticati...I wonder whether Leiter's job market prognostication is based on a good deal of inside information or is just his guess based on what everybody knows about the economy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-37365246585354445402008-07-11T01:00:00.000-07:002008-07-11T01:00:00.000-07:00I've had a number of great progressive professors ...I've had a number of great progressive professors in Washington state, including The Evergreen State College. I hope professors who are progressive continue to teach in colleges. They're great.<BR/><BR/>RitaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-83441028102436026232008-07-08T21:09:00.000-07:002008-07-08T21:09:00.000-07:00Ayn Rand? LOL! Pleeeease give me a break.Ayn Rand? LOL! Pleeeease give me a break.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-90102890958036478832008-07-08T20:35:00.000-07:002008-07-08T20:35:00.000-07:00True dat, 5:40 anon-a-bomb.True dat, 5:40 anon-a-bomb.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-14515165191854986022008-07-08T17:40:00.000-07:002008-07-08T17:40:00.000-07:00Hey, Ayn Rand was one of these here in-dee-pen-den...Hey, Ayn Rand was one of these here in-dee-pen-dent scholars we have been yucking about. Lord knows that crazy shit set the standard pretty high.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-46859605933916903772008-07-08T14:30:00.000-07:002008-07-08T14:30:00.000-07:00Speaking of think tanks, which ones would likely e...Speaking of think tanks, which ones would likely employ a philosopher (who's steeped in political theory, etc., but not so much on actual law or policy)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-84330330905691987142008-07-08T13:05:00.000-07:002008-07-08T13:05:00.000-07:00Think tanks, for sure; but www.anyrand.org? You ar...Think tanks, for sure; but www.anyrand.org? You are kidding, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-92104736322796774532008-07-08T11:29:00.000-07:002008-07-08T11:29:00.000-07:00Oops, I meant www.aynrand.org in the above post. ...Oops, I meant www.aynrand.org in the above post. My bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-69849884894878072272008-07-08T08:05:00.000-07:002008-07-08T08:05:00.000-07:00Wouldn't you have to count 'think tanks' as employ...Wouldn't you have to count 'think tanks' as employing independent scholar-types, such as www.anyrand.org? And don't forget about all the bioethics centers. Seems to be a good alternative to the academy, without having to take a job totally unrelated to philosophy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-64386584915390941032008-07-08T06:09:00.000-07:002008-07-08T06:09:00.000-07:00Another independent scholar who does excellent wor...Another independent scholar who does excellent work in metaphysics and philosophy of religion (among other areas): William Vallicella <BR/><BR/>Used to teach somewhere in Tennessee (tenure-track, I believe), and then got tired of the extracurricular nonsense and left...Still does very good work, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-91596120610027920962008-07-07T15:31:00.000-07:002008-07-07T15:31:00.000-07:00Cut the cord, people. If you're not getting paid, ...Cut the cord, people. If you're not getting paid, do something else. There's a big wide world out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-73727058108801642152008-07-07T14:07:00.000-07:002008-07-07T14:07:00.000-07:00You don't see much really good work from independe...You don't see much really good work from independent scholars since most people who can produce good work have TT jobs. <BR/><BR/>I'd guess that only the top 5% of people in the with full time TT jobs produce really new and interesting work, and the other 95% of us, if we are producing work at all, do so since (1. we are interested in the subject, and 2. its part of our job). <BR/><BR/>The job market is certainly far from perfect, but its not so imperfect that the top 5% of the field (who represent probably the top 2% of graduate students) typically can't find work. Those who can't find work are like the remaining 95% of us who, while they can produce competent work, aren't really producing stuff that we really need to see published, and without its being part of their job, its hard to see them taking their time with it. <BR/><BR/>Seriously, the vast majority of stuff I see in journals (including my own work) strikes me as fine, but not such that I could see someone who wasn't employed in the profession spending their getting it out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-50733909092161228902008-07-07T13:14:00.000-07:002008-07-07T13:14:00.000-07:00A question I hardly hear asked, and would love to ...A question I hardly hear asked, and would love to have some input on: What happens to people who don't get tenured? And how often does that happen?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-84560473933627487172008-07-07T11:08:00.000-07:002008-07-07T11:08:00.000-07:00Responding to the above argument: perhaps there is...Responding to the above argument: perhaps there is a greater proportion of people from 'top' universities in the philosophers-who-are-successful set because those who graduate from top universities are more likely to get a job more conducive to producing good research. So, it may not be that there is a greater proportion of people less likely to succeed in the group of those who enter into independent scholarship than those who are university employed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-66494724634105771922008-07-07T10:22:00.000-07:002008-07-07T10:22:00.000-07:008:01 - perhaps there are more/greater challenges t...8:01 - perhaps there are more/greater challenges to be faced by an independent scholar than there are for those tenured (eg. financial, motivation, sticking on track with research and maybe there would be less quality control measures in place for the IS) BUT:<BR/><BR/>1. Being university employed does not necessarily help you with being motivated (to produce good work) nor do you necessarily have more time to reasearch than someone with a part time, non-academic job; hence the crap that lots of university employed academics push out.<BR/><BR/>2. We cannot say that people who give independent scholarship a really good go (however you can measure that) have a low chance at producing good scholarship because <BR/><BR/>(a) there are so few people who profess to have given it a really good go, and<BR/><BR/>(b) there are so few independent scholars at all (from which it does not follow that many failed) <BR/><BR/>Also - I could be getting myself into trouble by saying this but here goes... it is possible that of all the people who are successful in philosophy (produce good scholarship), the proportion of 'successful' academics who did their PhD's at 'top' universities/prestigious philosophy departments (however this might be judged - dare I suggest - leiter ranked departments?) is greater than the proportion of the entire pool of university employed philosophers who did their studies at such 'top' universities. [Hope that makes sense cause I don't have time to rewrite] Therefore people who are likely to produce good philosophy have a greater chance of being employed by a university and less need to revert to independent scholarship. So, even if there were a substantial number of independent scholars, it might be expected that the overall quality of scholarship would be less than that produced by those in universities. This would not however, indicate that independent scholarship itself is the problem. On the other hand, if a great proportion of the people who entered the path of IS did not do so because they were unable to get a job, then this phenomenon might be less perceptable. (Of course, there are other things which could put an I. scholar at a disadvantage.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-81293203396258668442008-07-07T09:37:00.000-07:002008-07-07T09:37:00.000-07:00According to my uni library website, anyone from t...According to my uni library website, anyone from the community can gain access, which includes electronic access to journals (from within the library building - not from home computers) for a couple hundred dollars a year. So university affiliation is not entirely necessary for that purpose... maybe its a different story for other locations though. <BR/><BR/>7:37 - I think that this discussion would only be depressing if being an independant scholar was a last resort. Otherwise the possibility seems quite exciting and liberating; ie. from the idea that people absolutely MUST live within the 'academy' - be at the mercy of your employing university - in order to be able to do good philosophy.<BR/><BR/>8:47 is right - for those who dislike the job market, we should be trying to increase the viability of independant scholarship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-44950094021201899622008-07-07T08:01:00.000-07:002008-07-07T08:01:00.000-07:00Let me sum up the independent scholar nonsense. 1)...Let me sum up the independent scholar nonsense. <BR/><BR/>1) Can you be one (and a good one at that)? Of course you can, my dears.<BR/><BR/>2) Will you be a good one (and a good one at that)? Of course not. The Vegas odds on this one tell me to bet the family farm on this.<BR/><BR/>Sorry. I don't expect to see Joe or Jane Sixpack rockin Mind or JPhil anytime soon (not unless you got some major trustfundage bankrollin' your side projects). Although I will be happy to publish your hopelessly sloppy and out of date treatise for a meager sum. Mwahahahaha!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-77635629680886897212008-07-07T07:05:00.000-07:002008-07-07T07:05:00.000-07:00First time I really disagree with Mr. Zero. "Ph.D...First time I really disagree with Mr. Zero. "Ph.D.s who are likely to produce worthwhile scholarship are likely to end up with an academic position *if they are persistent.*"<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of career paths that might be more interesting to a good researcher than a faculty slot at a poor school in the boonies with a 4-4 load. People on the cognitive science side are particularly likely to work in computer-related or health-science fields, for example, that pay well and are intellectually challenging, and might even allow employees some encouragement (or, less often, support) for research. Some lawyers also publish with some regularity, as do some people in finance/economics fields. And some of these folks have PhDs in philosophy or closely-related fields. Moving outside philosophy, I see plenty of research in linguistics, religious studies, history, and anthropology conducted by independent scholars, and philosophical research often requires fewer resources (primary sources, time for fieldwork, etc.) than most of these disciplines.<BR/><BR/>The hardest part of being an independent scholar is lack of library resources. It used to be that a weekend trip to a major public university would go a long way, but as universities cut back on print journals, it's getting increasingly difficult for folks who can get physical access to libraries but not online access to journals and indices (a lot of my research time in recent years has been spent in Philosopher's Index, Web of Science, etc., trying to keep up with trends in research).<BR/><BR/>I'll point out that much of the best early modern philosophy was done outside universities, and many of the greatest scholars (Einstein, AE Housman) spent some time as independent scholars, then moved back into universities after publishing.<BR/><BR/>Anon 8:08: I find conferences are great for keeping motivated. I've presented every 2-3 years but often it's better to go to sessions, catch up with friends in TT jobs, etc. and only present when I have something in the works and find it's helpful to my own work to get feedback. BTW, I don't know how you put everything on hold for 10 years then picked it up. My advice would be: keep some research trajectory even if it's modest throughout the new career or it'll be much much harder to pick it up again.<BR/><BR/>Anon 9:54: Independent scholars are often in a position to produce _better_ research than they would as standing faculty, because they can publish when they're ready not when they need to. That may mean they publish _less_, but I don't think of that as a tradeoff. A lot of academics view the quality of a CV as dependent on the number of publications, because that's how tenure committees look at it: at one school you need a book (or two) for tenure, at another three papers in six years, but as long as it's peer-reviewed, from a good press, whatever, there's often little further assessment of its quality. As an independent scholar you don't have to play such games, you don't have to break research into MPUs (mimimum publishable units) etc and this fact might account in part for academics' feeling that independent scholars tend not to be as good as academic ones: they don't play by the same rules.<BR/><BR/>(There are also a lot of poor or fake scholars who publish witchcraft through vanity presses and they often show up high on Google searches and the like, and that tends to hurt the repuations of reputable scholars who don't have academic appointments.)<BR/><BR/>As for Mr. Zero's later post: I think you'll find increasing numbers of good independent scholars in coming years. When higher ed was a growth industry, yes, most scholars in the humanities ended up teaching in universities. Now I think we're going more towards that early modern model, that universities actively discourage quality research, and the many good scholars in teaching jobs produce despite the system rather than because they're a part of it (notice the scope of my quantification before you complain about the last sentence, everyone). <BR/><BR/>TPG: you're mixing apples and oranges. The main question, I think, is about how to produce good scholarship without departmental affiliation. If you write good stuff, you can get it published. If your concern is with reputation among academic scholars (which is what I think your "being taken seriously" must mean, because it can't mean simply "being a good researcher") or rejoining academia, then yes, life as a long-term independent scholar isn't a good choice. And I think the idea of taking precious free time to teach a course at a local college is silly, if the main goal is to have an affiliation after your name when you do publish. I'd rather teach because I love teaching, or to access to library resources, and otherwise spend my free time on my research. DON'T BECOME AN INDEPENDENT SCHOLAR IF YOU CARE ABOUT WHAT YOUR FRIENDS IN TEACHING CAREERS THINK, yinz.<BR/><BR/>Anon 6:06 (re: "an outside job, in contrast, offers little or no synergies with your research"): it all depends on the job. Regardless of your field (applied ethics, logic, soc/pol, science, religion, language, etc.) you can probably think of jobs that impinge upon it.<BR/><BR/>(Big post because I'm late to the debate, sorry. I've been busy on my research over the weekend.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com