tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post5708690658370013575..comments2023-08-08T00:37:45.098-07:00Comments on A Philosophy Job Market Blog: I Hope that Someone Gets My Message in a BottlePseudonymous Grad Studenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00627480292942427387noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-76016883232489044062008-02-04T14:34:00.000-08:002008-02-04T14:34:00.000-08:00Say you have an offer from university A, which is ...<I>Say you have an offer from university A, which is OK. It is a time-limited offer, and you sign a contract. Then dream school B makes you an offer. Can you break your contract with A? </I><BR/><BR/>You shouldn't. <BR/><BR/>What you should do is, as soon as you have an OK offer from University A, contact all other places that still have you under consideration that you might prefer to A and let them know what's up. Let them know the deadline and ask them if you have any chance of getting an offer from them soon.<BR/><BR/>If Dream School B says that e.g., you're their second choice but that Number One is still considering their offer, ask University A for an additional week (or whatever). You'll probably have a 50/50 chance of getting it.<BR/><BR/>Things might not work out anyway, but communicating with people along the way will give you a better chance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-46098124499957783582008-02-04T13:26:00.000-08:002008-02-04T13:26:00.000-08:00I have another job negotiation question. Say you h...<I>I have another job negotiation question. Say you have an offer from university A, which is OK. It is a time-limited offer, and you sign a contract. Then dream school B makes you an offer. Can you break your contract with A? Honestly, I'm not asking here about the moral question of promise-keeping, I'm asking about 1) legal situation, or 2) the extent to which you will completely alienate yourself from the people at school X.</I><BR/><BR/>It depends on the details of the contract, but most states are at-will employment, so it would be just like quitting (as far as the legal risk to you) and it will alienate people if you walk away, trashing their search.<BR/><BR/>Turn it around. School A has offered you a job as their second choice, but their dream candidate who had turned them down has a change of heart. Okay for them to pull your offer? Would their name be mud at your school?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-11744089288140692252008-02-04T09:45:00.000-08:002008-02-04T09:45:00.000-08:00I found a pretty good handout on negotiating an ac...I found a pretty good handout on negotiating an academic job offer. <BR/><BR/>Go to http://www.career.uh.edu/<BR/><BR/>Then click "Handouts" at the top right. Then scroll half-way down the page to "Academic Job Offers & Negotiation."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-2519617980206224752008-02-04T08:20:00.000-08:002008-02-04T08:20:00.000-08:00anon 3:09,I've posted my last 'noise' comment, I t...anon 3:09,<BR/><BR/>I've posted my last 'noise' comment, I think. Sorry if I was being obnoxious. <BR/><BR/>That said, let me say something else about noise. I think that we, as grad students/applicants, need to be cognizant of the noise level, too. Since these things are very noisy, and the noise can easily work against us, it's very important for us to work to limit the bad noise and to create good noise. I think that sharing strategies about how to accomplish this is one of the most valuable things about this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-23413361795295701982008-02-03T09:10:00.000-08:002008-02-03T09:10:00.000-08:00Re: negotiation in TT offers.Yes, do it! If you've...Re: negotiation in TT offers.<BR/><BR/>Yes, do it! If you've gotten an offer, the department <B>wants</B> you, and they don't want the search to fall through. And as others have said, this is your best chance to get more loot.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, if you have an offer from elsewhere, you have more leverage. But if you look pretty good (which you do if you got an offer), and the department is pulling for you strongly, you should have a good chance of getting the Dean to sweeten the pot a little in any case.<BR/><BR/>Don't ask for a permanent teaching reduction; it will just make you look bad. You *should* ask what the school's pre-tenure leave policy is in any case. And if they don't already do so, consider asking for a semester off after your third-year review. Even if you don't get it, you might get some sort of temporary course reduction to help with research. Folks upthread have other good suggestion sabout things to ask for (good computer, travel money, etc.)<BR/><BR/>Also, if you have good vibes from the department chair after your on-campus interview, and he (or she) seems approachable, try to be open with him about what you're thinking of asking for. A good departmental chair wants his faculty to be happy, wants the search the succeed, and will know the school's budget and what sorts of things can and can't happen. So a good chair will give you worthwhile advice about what to ask for and what not to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-19291171070727720742008-02-03T08:45:00.000-08:002008-02-03T08:45:00.000-08:00Regarding negotiations: I want to reiterate what o...Regarding negotiations: I want to reiterate what others have already said. There is no harm done in trying to negotiate, so long as you do it respectfully, and the only time you will get to negotiate (if you don't have outside offers down the road) is upon hiring. Regarding salary, a nice way to do it is to simply ask: 'Is there room for negotiation?' Regarding other matters, make sure you know what exactly you will get upon arriving. Not all universities give new faculty a computer for the office, so be sure to ask for that. Other questions (some of which overlap): travel money? research budget? teaching reduction in the first term/year? pre-tenure leave? moving expenses? start up money? For things like a research budget or start up money, be sure to have a clear list of what you might need the money for (books, computer software, consulting with others elsewhere, travel to archives, microfilm reader (be creative)) Also remember to be reasonable: if you get pre-tenure leave, you might not want to ask for teaching release, for instance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-44312768953793337152008-02-03T08:21:00.000-08:002008-02-03T08:21:00.000-08:00I have another job negotiation question. Say you h...I have another job negotiation question. Say you have an offer from university A, which is OK. It is a time-limited offer, and you sign a contract. Then dream school B makes you an offer. Can you break your contract with A? Honestly, I'm not asking here about the moral question of promise-keeping, I'm asking about 1) legal situation, or 2) the extent to which you will completely alienate yourself from the people at school X.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-47909565910236048662008-02-03T06:46:00.000-08:002008-02-03T06:46:00.000-08:00I think that the advice above about negotiations i...I think that the advice above about negotiations is all good! I would like to stress, though, that you should make sure to get *everything* in writing--and if certain things are very important to you, to have a lawyer make sure that you'll have recourse if the school tries to renege. <BR/><BR/>None of this would have occured to me until I accepted a TT job at a Large Southern School as a result of being offered a significantly higher salary than my previous TT job, an Instructor position for my partner in the same department, and expense reimbursement for setting up a Center. As soon as we arrived the Instructorship vanished (leaving my partner unemployed), that part of my salary that was funded by soft money was paid by the Chair and his cronies to some "good Southern boys" associated with the department (which, when the donor found out, led it to promptly withdraw funding and consider legal action), and I never received reimbursement for several thousand dollars of expenses.<BR/><BR/>Of course, this is an especially egegious horror story, and *highly* unusual. And I'm fortunate to have been able to move from there to my dream job, which is sheer bliss. But it does show that not everyone in academia is honest. A polite request for all the terms of your offer to be placed in writing won't be thought unusual--indeed, most schools will probably send you this in any case--and could save you a lot of heartache later on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-61357259704016435712008-02-02T20:07:00.000-08:002008-02-02T20:07:00.000-08:00Regarding VAP positions;Teaching what they need yo...Regarding VAP positions;<BR/><BR/>Teaching what they need you to teach is the priority. <BR/><BR/>But it might also be a good idea to play up one's willingness to talk about other people's research. There is likely to be at least one person on the search committee who is looking for a fresh perspective on what they are writing. So if you are more than happy to read other's work and offer some comments on it, that will be a good thing. No matter what kind of job it is there will be someone there who wants an interesting person to talk to about their work.<BR/><BR/>This will also set you up, if you get hired, to have people read your stuff. Which is key for making a VAP payoff. Ideally, you want to leave the place with letters from outside your home department that say you are a smart and interesting philosopher. VAPs only payoff if you increase the number of philosophers willing to go to bat for you as a good philosopher.<BR/><BR/>By the way I am the original VAP, at least for this site. You other VAPs need to get your own moniker. Don't steal my mojo!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-30193982073687568612008-02-02T19:55:00.000-08:002008-02-02T19:55:00.000-08:00Thanks for the feedback on the potential to negoti...Thanks for the feedback on the potential to negotiate at the asst TT level. I'm somewhat skeptical that it's really possible to do this without two offers, though. If you don't have two offers, how do you go about broaching the topic? Do you just say "I think I'm worth more than that?"<BR/><BR/>I'm also interested in non-traditional things that you might want. Can you (plausibly) ask for a reduced rate mortgage? If there are any other "creative" things that we might ask for, but that I just can't think of, I'd be interested in hearing about them. At public universities where salaries are public, I could imagine it would be difficult to negotiate the salary too much, but other extras might be easier to get.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-66309136737785493692008-02-02T17:19:00.000-08:002008-02-02T17:19:00.000-08:00Huh, I've learned something here myself. I would h...Huh, I've learned something here myself. I would have been much less optimistic about the prospects of negotiating.<BR/>I think often there isn't a whole lot of room for salary negotiation because the dean of the faculty may be constrained by rules. Likewise for a course off: I think at a lot of schools there will be hard-and-fast rules against this. Moving expenses, I think, ought to be pretty standard.<BR/><BR/>But from what I'm hearing it sounds like at some places there are real prospects for negotiating, even without a competing offer. That's great to hear! I'd add that it can't hurt to try, in any case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-90117622476927300242008-02-02T16:36:00.000-08:002008-02-02T16:36:00.000-08:00Leiter had an interesting post on the subject of j...Leiter had an interesting post on the subject of junior negotiation, though it's geared to R1 jobs:<BR/> http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2007/02/negotiating_a_j.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-48223610679438572052008-02-02T16:12:00.000-08:002008-02-02T16:12:00.000-08:00Anon 11:42 and 2:29:Actually, I wasn't trying to d...Anon 11:42 and 2:29:<BR/><BR/>Actually, I wasn't trying to defend the request for student letters, though I can see why you got that impression. I was just trying to clarify their motivation for making such a request. I myself don't think the request is stupid, but overall, I think the costs outweigh the benefits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-29510658465545369062008-02-02T15:09:00.001-08:002008-02-02T15:09:00.001-08:00In defense of cst...Personally, I don't see anythi...In defense of cst...Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the request. I'm a graduate student instructor at a major research university (still working on the dissertation), and I had no problems finding students to write letters for me. In fact, I found it difficult to narrow down the ones that I wanted. Many of them (sometime after taking my Intro to Phil., Ethics, etc., courses) became philosophy majors, so it was relatively easy. I too applied for the job at Oxford College (though, sadly, I was granted no interview - maybe those letters didn't help all that much after all!). <BR/><BR/>I know, I know...Mr. Zero's gonna' pop up here and start talking about goddamned "noise" again. But I honestly can't see anything wrong with this procedure - other than the perpetual whining about more "work" to do for the application process. I enjoyed teaching my classes, my student's seemed to respond, and for that reason, I don't see what's wrong with finding your best students to write letters for you. <BR/><BR/>And nah, I didn't send'em elsewhere...Ye ol' proverb "If they don't ask for it, don't..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-84844420539616985442008-02-02T15:09:00.000-08:002008-02-02T15:09:00.000-08:00Folks, I was f***ing kidding about mentioning this...Folks, I was f***ing kidding about mentioning this blog in the VAP letter, so relax. Thx to the folks who answered the VAP letter part, though!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-83484297382402763862008-02-02T14:34:00.000-08:002008-02-02T14:34:00.000-08:00Hey PGS/PGOATI think the topic of negotiations is ...Hey PGS/PGOAT<BR/><BR/>I think the topic of negotiations is important enough to have its own thread (though it will be a bit annoying for those without offers).<BR/><BR/>I think there is a temptation to think that since it's so hard to get a TT job, you should just take whatever they offer. But, you have to resist this way of thinking--this is your only time to negotiate things for your life until tenure, typically. The only other way to get more loot (broadly construed) is to get another offer in the future.<BR/><BR/>So, without being obnoxious, keeping in mind what your school's resources are like, you need to consider (at least) the following:<BR/><BR/>Annual salary<BR/>Set-up expenses/research funds<BR/>Moving expenses<BR/>Sabbatical Policies (Pre-tenure and otherwise)<BR/><BR/><BR/>The dean is the person making the decisions, but you might have your chair act as an advocate to guide you in terms of what is reasonable to accept. My chair was a lifesaver on this one. I didn't have a counter-offer at the time but my chair was the one to tell me to ask for more! I really like my chair!<BR/><BR/>I think the best thing to do is to ask young faculty you trust who have gone through this recently, or ask your program's chair. My younger mentors told me it was very standard to get more loot, even without a counter-offer. I was clueless.<BR/><BR/>Two more things: First, keep in mind that at some schools, if you get a raised offer, all assistant profs in your department/division will have to get a raise, so it may be a big deal to the school. Stay respectful and understanding, but ask about the options.<BR/><BR/>Second, Anon 11:47 brought up course reductions. I think it is WAY more likely to get more money than a lighter course load. Unless you are seriously hot shit, you're going to teach the same load as the other assts. But, many schools will offer a one-time one course reduction for one of your first few semesters. The only other course load negotiations would center around sabbatical policies, I would think.<BR/><BR/>Just be respectful, upfront, and fair.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-24200270775140712622008-02-02T14:29:00.000-08:002008-02-02T14:29:00.000-08:00Yeah, CST, the problem with the Emory ad is not th...Yeah, CST, the problem with the Emory ad is not that it focuses on getting evidence about teaching. It's that it requires evidence that most applicants won't be able to provide, and that some reasonable people might think presents the candidate with a moral dilemma. So it's both impractical and stupid.<BR/><BR/>A lot of people at teaching schools get holier than thou about their commitment to teaching. I'm one of those people (contra many readers here) who think that the primary responsibility of all professors, except for research professors (those without any teaching obligations) is teaching. I work hard on my teaching and I take pride in it. But not everything is justifiable if you amend the coda "because we value good teaching" to the end of it.<BR/><BR/>So either the folks at Emory are manipulative, as we suggested, or they're sincere but stupid. Which would you prefer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-21960322100476776262008-02-02T14:17:00.000-08:002008-02-02T14:17:00.000-08:00you can _definitely_ negotiate at the assistant le...you can _definitely_ negotiate at the assistant level position. And salary is definitely on the table, at least at most places. I don't think candidates realize how much power they have once the department has settled on you as the favored candidate.<BR/><BR/>There are tons of things you are going to want spelled out before you sign a contract:<BR/><BR/>- annual salary<BR/>- moving expenses<BR/>- research funds<BR/>- workload<BR/>- course reduction for first year or two<BR/>- office and computer facilities<BR/>etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-50036368193950443052008-02-02T13:12:00.000-08:002008-02-02T13:12:00.000-08:00To follow up on anon 11:47, with whom does one neg...To follow up on anon 11:47, with whom does one negotiate when appropriate? Is this something that one takes up with the search chair, department chair, or dean?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-57786400700702939292008-02-02T13:05:00.000-08:002008-02-02T13:05:00.000-08:00Negotiating a TT Asst Prof offer ... I too would p...Negotiating a TT Asst Prof offer ... I too would particularly appreciate some discussion of this issue. What's in/appropriate to ask for? What are SC chairs expecting to hear? Can you ask for more (whatever) only if you have another offer, or in any case? All help appreciated!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-51866029188050622872008-02-02T11:47:00.000-08:002008-02-02T11:47:00.000-08:00I was wondering whether it was generally considere...I was wondering whether it was generally considered acceptable to try to negotiate terms on offers at the Assistant Prof. level. Would this be considered obnoxious? Are there certain kinds of terms it would be OK to negotiate (maybe, teaching reductions) but others not (maybe, salary)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-79707901648720531242008-02-02T11:42:00.000-08:002008-02-02T11:42:00.000-08:00cst,It's still the case that Oxford College is the...cst,<BR/><BR/>It's still the case that Oxford College is the only SLAC or wanna-be-SLAC asking for such letters. It's not the difference between teaching and research oriented schools: not even teaching oriented schools want that nonsense. I'm guessing that someone in the Dean's office had a bright idea and didn't think through how stupid it was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-57570208633569553952008-02-02T10:27:00.000-08:002008-02-02T10:27:00.000-08:00Why would one want to mention this blog in a lette...Why would one want to mention this blog in a letter for a VAP? I don't see it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-92000934795088049002008-02-02T10:00:00.000-08:002008-02-02T10:00:00.000-08:00Anon 8:46: Here's the advice/explanation I got whi...Anon 8:46: <BR/><BR/>Here's the advice/explanation I got while applying for one-year gigs, which was confirmed by the dept. where I'm now a VAP: <BR/><BR/>Typically, VAP's are for the sake of meeting specific teaching needs--needs which should be spelled out or at least mentioned in the job ad ('successful candidate will be expected to teach X, Y, and/or Z'). So show them, or at least tell them, that you can teach X, Y, and/or Z (and that you'd be happy to do so). <BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, most depts. will gauge a candidate's fit primarily based on research--that's what you'll bring to the job in addition to meeting those teaching needs. <BR/><BR/>The good news, then, is that roughly the same letter you used in the Fall is good in the Spring. (I used a slightly shortened version of my TT apps, cutting the stuff on long-term research interests.)<BR/><BR/>But I would say it is more important in this situation to make sure that the letter, especially the teaching bits, fits the description. If a dept. needs someone to fill two sections of social/political, say, or medical ethics, they want more than just a broad or vague interest in those areas. They want someone who can come in on short notice and teach those classes well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1944513327283802005.post-74304230429191248802008-02-02T09:46:00.000-08:002008-02-02T09:46:00.000-08:00Multiple people are suggesting that the primary mo...Multiple people are suggesting that the primary motivation for requiring three student letters is to cut down on the number applications. I doubt that is the real motivation. <BR/><BR/>I did my undergraduate at Emory University, so I know the role that Oxford College plays within the wider university system. It is marketed as a stepping stone to Emory University. Oxford college has smaller class sizes, more devoted teachers, etc. Whereas Emory has highish research expectations for its faculty members, Oxford College greatly prioritizes teaching. The hope is that, while at Oxford, students will get all the benefits of a small liberal arts college. Then when they transition to Emory university for the last two years (as is the custom), they will have all the benefits of a major research institution.<BR/><BR/>In short, I think Oxford College requested those student letters because of how much they prioritize teaching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com